12 replies to this topic

[J Boyle]

A couple of weeks ago on the SDC Forum they were discussing how some Chevy fans were occasionally rude to Studebaker owners (and other non-GM drivers) at car shows.
Someone mentioned that he thought some Avanti owners looked down their noses at other Studebakers.

I responded:

I don't know if they (the "snobs" the SDC member seems to have met) look down on Studes, but rather are just Avanti-centric. From observation and reading the Avanti magazine, my guess is that manyof those owners are just into Avantis...their interest in old cars begins and ends with that car.
Some are just into the IIs, post-84s or post-2000 models usually depending on what they own. Some aren't the sterotypical "old car guys/girls" but like the Avanti because of its style and Loewy connection.
For people with narrow interests, it's not hard to imagine that they're not into bulletnoses and Larks....despite the Avanti's obvious relation to the latter.
I think the majority of those people just belong to the AOAI and not the SDC. Yes, SDC welcomes their cars at its meets but it wouldn't hurt to have SDC members reach out to those folks who aren't the sterotypical old car owners/restorers/self mechanics.
Remember, "snobbery" can go both ways, just because a person shows up who doesn't know a carb from a hog trough, doesn't make him/her any less of a Stude Avanti/Avanti fan.

What do you think? Are some of us "snobs"?
I haven't met any, but I do really believe what I said about some of us being Avanti-centric.
If you attend a SDC event, reach out to the other Studebaker owners....

Edited by J Boyle, 14 April 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[okc63avanti]

I don't think we are snobs, your avanti centric analysis I think hits the mark. I suspect a great majority of Studebaker avanti owners are also SDC members as well as AOAI members, and a good number of avanti II owners may be as well. I wonder if the AOAI and SDC have ever shared or looked at the number of joint members are in both clubs, this would be a great statistic to know.

Edited by okc63avanti, 14 April 2012 - 08:14 AM.

[Gunslinger]

I have to say I've never run into an "Avanti snob" but have run into some from other makes.  It just goes with the territory I guess.  Some aren't "snobs" but are "-centric" towards whatever make, as you've aptly put it.

I used to think of Corvette owners as snobbish...until I bought a Corvette and found I was very wrong.  The Vette owners I'm acquainted with and socialize with are great people...maybe opinionated at times but less about Corvettes vs. other makes as much as between different generations of Corvettes.  That's not to say there aren't some snobs out there but I simply avoid them when I happen to recognize them for that.

The worst "snobs" I've had personal experience with are the Mopar people...not all by any means.  But, as a group, the Mopar guys are real lunatics for the marque...Mopar is their religion.  They don't refer to "Mother Mopar" except in reverence.  I regularly go to various Carlisle events...Spring Carlisle, GM Nationals, Chryslers at Carlisle, Corvettes at Carlisle, etc.  The Mopar event is complete lunacy compared to the others.

While I don't have any experience with the Porsche guys I have heard they're the worst.  That could be legend, though I expect the jokes about Porsche owners must have some basis in truth.

[okc63avanti]

My resto-mod project on my 63 avanti should be finished in a couple of months and I intend on showing it at the International meet in South Bend later this summer. However, after bringing it here back home, I will enter it in as many of the local car shows as possible in order to up the recognition of the avant and to represent Studebaker and the Avanti as much as possible.

Edited by okc63avanti, 14 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Jim78]

Like some other things, everyone has an opinion.  I have been an SDC member for over 40 years, and have encountered all sorts of people with various opinions about the Avanti.  From its introduction, there were people who thought that the Avanti was the best, or worst, styling in history.  Many think that the Avanti II was the best, or worst, idea.  

I drove a '63 Avanti for 29 years.  I now have a '78.  I can't say that I've encountered "snobs", but I do know a number of people who feel that the Studebaker Avanti is the only "real" Avanti, and that the Avanti II is something less.  As an AOAI member, I have met a number of people who feel that the Avanti II is a superior vehicle, and would like to divorce it from its Studebaker ancestry.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"

[Gunslinger]

I do have to say that I have seen where some people believe the only "real" Avantis are the ones that say "Studebaker" on the trunk lid.  That's fine with me...they can think what they think.  Avanti II's were built for a different market...read anything about Nate Altman and that's abundantly clear.  That also begs the question...do these same people believe the 1965-'66 Studebakers aren't "real" Studes since they have outside sourced McKinnon engines?  

I've owned a '63 Avanti and now own a '70 Avanti II and a 2002.  The '70 is primarily built of leftover Studebaker Avanti parts so it's no surprise they feel much the same to me.  I can't comment on the possible differences in initial build quality since I purchased each one used with many miles and after a number of previous owners who gave them indifferent (at best) care.  To say one was built superior to the other is simply impossible at this stage.  My 2002 is so far a superior automobile than either of the others it's beyond description...but that's understandable with several generations of improvements in automotive engineering and technology (even if it's GM, not Studebaker engineering).  One simply cannot compare a new, modern chassis against what's essentially a 1953 Studebaker chassis.  

I've read on the SDC Forum where at least one person doesn't consider the 2001-2007 Avantis real Avantis since they're essentially re-bodied Firebirds.  There is certainly truth the contention that they're little more than factory assembled kit cars, but you could make that argument about Avanti II's as well, though it's less true for them.  Do the '87-'91 Avantis qualify as factory assembled kit cars as they're re-bodied Monte Carlos, El Caminos and Caprices with custom interiors?  I believe the AOAI has it right...they're all Avanti and classed within their own specific and contemporary design and build eras.  Corvettes are much the same...six specific eras, all with their own strong and weak design points, but all still Corvettes.

I don't understand why some are so intent on Avanti bashing, but they're certainly welcome to their opinions.  Any car that has such polarizing opinions is a marvel...that may well be what Sherwood Egbert and Raymond Loewy were aiming for...to bring attention to the design and to the car maker.  There are other model Studebakers (and other makes and models) that I would love to own, but most likely never will.  That doesn't mean I should put down the cars that don't appeal to me.  They all have their histories...some outstanding and well known and some are little more than footnotes in automobile history.  They meant something to someone for many reasons or they never would have been built or no one would want to restore and own one now.

[dapy]

Gunslinger, on 15 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I do have to say that I have seen where some people believe the only "real" Avantis are the ones that say "Studebaker" on the trunk lid.  That's fine with me...they can think what they think.  Avanti II's were built for a different market...read anything about Nate Altman and that's abundantly clear.  That also begs the question...do these same people believe the 1965-'66 Studebakers aren't "real" Studes since they have outside sourced McKinnon engines?  

I've owned a '63 Avanti and now own a '70 Avanti II and a 2002.  The '70 is primarily built of leftover Studebaker Avanti parts so it's no surprise they feel much the same to me.  I can't comment on the possible differences in initial build quality since I purchased each one used with many miles and after a number of previous owners who gave them indifferent (at best) care.  To say one was built superior to the other is simply impossible at this stage.  My 2002 is so far a superior automobile than either of the others it's beyond description...but that's understandable with several generations of improvements in automotive engineering and technology (even if it's GM, not Studebaker engineering).  One simply cannot compare a new, modern chassis against what's essentially a 1953 Studebaker chassis.  

I've read on the SDC Forum where at least one person doesn't consider the 2001-2007 Avantis real Avantis since they're essentially re-bodied Firebirds.  There is certainly truth the contention that they're little more than factory assembled kit cars, but you could make that argument about Avanti II's as well, though it's less true for them.  Do the '87-'91 Avantis qualify as factory assembled kit cars as they're re-bodied Monte Carlos, El Caminos and Caprices with custom interiors?  I believe the AOAI has it right...they're all Avanti and classed within their own specific and contemporary design and build eras.  Corvettes are much the same...six specific eras, all with their own strong and weak design points, but all still Corvettes.

I don't understand why some are so intent on Avanti bashing, but they're certainly welcome to their opinions.  Any car that has such polarizing opinions is a marvel...that may well be what Sherwood Egbert and Raymond Loewy were aiming for...to bring attention to the design and to the car maker.  There are other model Studebakers (and other makes and models) that I would love to own, but most likely never will.  That doesn't mean I should put down the cars that don't appeal to me.  They all have their histories...some outstanding and well known and some are little more than footnotes in automobile history.  They meant something to someone for many reasons or they never would have been built or no one would want to restore and own one now.

[dapy]

I'm probably a snob. I'm a new Studebaker Avanti owner and I only considered one like that. I plan to be friendly with all Stude's and Avanti's. My first car ever was a 1950 bullet nose. I'm from South Bend. Some of my best friends were Studebakers or those who worked there. The Avanti is my second 'antique' car. I got it because of the foregoing and because I thought it different, special and a good value. (However, that is yet to be determined.)

I also prize the Avanti as ahead of its time, original and authentic. The market seems to value the early Avanti. I wrote a story about my hero Sherwood Egbert. I met Raymond Loewy. (Maybe 'proud' is a better description than snob.) At my age looking back is better than looking forward so I'm stuck in 1964. I know little and care less about other old cars...Mopar makes parts, Chevy makes cars and the Corvette is out of my league.

But with this harangue I have a question: How many of each Avanti model are 'active'? A guestimate will work.

[okc63avanti]

dapy, on 15 April 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

But with this harangue I have a question: How many of each Avanti model are 'active'? A guestimate will work.

I've heard estimates that about 1/2 of the original avantis are thought to have survived. Our AOAI "Avanti" magazine editor, Lew Schucart, will probably have the best estimate.

[Harvey]

I was a Studebaker fan before the Avanti was introduced. My brother owned a 56 Flight Hawk and my dad bought a new 56 sedan. When the Avanti was introduced in 62 I was in awe. In the mid 70's I bought a 57 Golden Hawk which is sold in the early '80's because of economic reasons. In recent years I have bought an restored several 60's GM mid size cars. But in all the years from when I first saw the Avanti I never owned one. Last month I finally satisfied my 1962 dream. I now owna 63 Avanti that I'm finishing a full restoration that the seller started aomits 20 years ago.  Am I a snob?  No but to me an Avanti is a Studebaker. In fact when anyone asks what what I bought I always  answer "Studebaker" because Studebakers are my roots to this car.  Also, most people have no idea what an Avanti is but most know the name Studebaker. It's fun when they see the car and say "Gee, I've never seen a Studebaker that looks like that." I'm a member of AOAI and SDC.  However I'm a Studebaker guy first. No snobbery here!
Harvey

[plwindish]

I was born into a Studebaker driving family in 1948.  I remember my folks having a '52, 55 Commander 4 door, 56 wagon, 57 Scotsman wagon, 58 Commander 4 door sedan and a '61 Hawk that became my first set of wheels in high school.  A '49 Studebaker 1 1/2 ton truck my dad bought new when I was in the hospital being born, hung around long enough for me to drive  until my first year of college.  My brother, being 5 yrs older than me had a 60 Lark convertible, 61 Hawk, and a 62 GT Hawk before going to a new 66 Dodge.  The first car I bought my senior yr in high school was a nice 64 Avanti R1 that I drove the wheels off of for three years.  Last year I got a 76 Avanti, getting back to my driving roots.  I love Avantis and don't consider myself an Avanti snob.  I drool over Super Hawks and Super Larks, but don't have resources or facilities to add to my collection yearnings.  I'm not really into the Studebakers that are older than me as I don't have a strong connection with the older models except the 39 Express Coupe.  That truck is drop dead gorgeous. I think people connect with models of their youth, and from that point, people's strong regard and feelings for the Avanti might possibly be construed as being "snobs".

[1963r2]

I think this all stems from the fact that the Avanti continued to be made and had a life of it's own after Studebaker retired from car manufacturing.
I guess some people feel that the Avanti has become a group (Avanti) within a group (Studebaker)  and the 63/64 models are catagorize more as Avanti's then Studebakers. This may be perceived as snobbery.
Personally I don't believe that much of it goes on but I can understand where some people might get that perception.
As far as I'm concerned Avanti's in there various guises should always be apart of the Studebaker umbrella .I'm sure that Sherwood is smiling to himself that his idea made it out of the 60's and into the new millenium.

pb

Edited by 1963r2, 22 April 2012 - 05:34 AM.

[plwindish]

Well said. Sherwood Egbert and Raymond Loewy both should be smiling that they were instrumental in creating a car that carried on long after Studebaker called it quits.  If not for Michael Kelly's legal predicament, it still might be going.